Comments on: Sleepy, Grumpy and Dopey http://www.eiaonline.com/intercepts/2008/07/31/sleepy-grumpy-and-dopey/ A listening post monitoring public education and teachers' unions. Sat, 04 Feb 2012 13:02:34 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: EastCoast http://www.eiaonline.com/intercepts/2008/07/31/sleepy-grumpy-and-dopey/comment-page-1/#comment-1065 EastCoast Thu, 07 Aug 2008 14:36:00 +0000 http://www.eiaonline.com/intercepts/?p=1145#comment-1065 Parent: Yes, I read, or tried to read, their accusations. They, admittedly, became tiresome. But having said that...my experience has been that when teachers respond to their superiors by whinning and childish actions...the problem goes deeper than just the school. Perhaps it is the administration of the school division that needs to examine how they chose Principals...why they moved this woman around...and what they can do to help the situation. I know unions want to protect their members, otherwise they will cease to exist, but put this woman in a job where she doesn't have to deal with people. Who is representing the teachers? Bad managerial behavior is bad managerial behavior whether a person works in the public sector or in the private sector. I know teachers who have left the teaching profession, gone to work in the private sector, and wonder why they didn't leave sooner. Why do you think that in many school divisions to put an administrator back in the classroom is considered the "kiss of death?" My theory is that teachers are treated at each level based on the level they teach. For example, in an elementary school, teachers are treated like little kids. Teachers in middle schools are treated like middle school students...rules, rules, and more rules. Teachers who teach high school are treated more like adults. Our association receives many more phone calls from elementary teachers than secondary teachers. Again...most studies show that people do not leave teaching for the money, alone...they leave because of working conditions. Working conditions directly correlate with how you are treated as an employee...and that includes all aspects of teaching...discipline, how your Principal speaks to you, administrative/parental support, how you are treated as a professional, etc. I also know many teachers who have told their children not to become a teacher. Now that is truly sad! Parent: Yes, I read, or tried to read, their accusations. They, admittedly, became tiresome. But having said that…my experience has been that when teachers respond to their superiors by whinning and childish actions…the problem goes deeper than just the school. Perhaps it is the administration of the school division that needs to examine how they chose Principals…why they moved this woman around…and what they can do to help the situation.
I know unions want to protect their members, otherwise they will cease to exist, but put this woman in a job where she doesn’t have to deal with people. Who is representing the teachers?
Bad managerial behavior is bad managerial behavior whether a person works in the public sector or in the private sector. I know teachers who have left the teaching profession, gone to work in the private sector, and wonder why they didn’t leave sooner. Why do you think that in many school divisions to put an administrator back in the classroom is considered the “kiss of death?”
My theory is that teachers are treated at each level based on the level they teach. For example, in an elementary school, teachers are treated like little kids. Teachers in middle schools are treated like middle school students…rules, rules, and more rules. Teachers who teach high school are treated more like adults. Our association receives many more phone calls from elementary teachers than secondary teachers.
Again…most studies show that people do not leave teaching for the money, alone…they leave because of working conditions. Working conditions directly correlate with how you are treated as an employee…and that includes all aspects of teaching…discipline, how your Principal speaks to you, administrative/parental support, how you are treated as a professional, etc.
I also know many teachers who have told their children not to become a teacher. Now that is truly sad!

]]> By: Parent http://www.eiaonline.com/intercepts/2008/07/31/sleepy-grumpy-and-dopey/comment-page-1/#comment-1064 Parent Wed, 06 Aug 2008 21:18:14 +0000 http://www.eiaonline.com/intercepts/?p=1145#comment-1064 EC--There's advocacy and there's idiocy and they are different. True enough--principals come up through the ranks of teachers and many run their schools like they ran their classrooms. The teachers in this case are demonstrating (literally) immaturity. For real grievances, there are channels. For the things that this group is upset about (have you read their website--it is an embarrassing list of he-said, she-said accusations, largely based on judgement calls that were the principal's to make. I don't know the woman, or the school, but based on what the teachers have put forth--and urged students to participate in, these folks need to go work outside the field for awhile. When the better than half of their students who read below grade level go out to get the kinds of jobs that will be available to them, do you think that they will get very far being indignant that a supervisor observes them while they are working, or (horrors) talks to them while they are working? Perhaps they could take a course or two on labor history and reflect upon some meaningful labor struggles--in which worker's families faced starvation to earn them the right to the labor organization that is behaving so shamefully. EC–There’s advocacy and there’s idiocy and they are different. True enough–principals come up through the ranks of teachers and many run their schools like they ran their classrooms. The teachers in this case are demonstrating (literally) immaturity. For real grievances, there are channels. For the things that this group is upset about (have you read their website–it is an embarrassing list of he-said, she-said accusations, largely based on judgement calls that were the principal’s to make. I don’t know the woman, or the school, but based on what the teachers have put forth–and urged students to participate in, these folks need to go work outside the field for awhile. When the better than half of their students who read below grade level go out to get the kinds of jobs that will be available to them, do you think that they will get very far being indignant that a supervisor observes them while they are working, or (horrors) talks to them while they are working? Perhaps they could take a course or two on labor history and reflect upon some meaningful labor struggles–in which worker’s families faced starvation to earn them the right to the labor organization that is behaving so shamefully.

]]> By: EastCoast http://www.eiaonline.com/intercepts/2008/07/31/sleepy-grumpy-and-dopey/comment-page-1/#comment-1063 EastCoast Wed, 06 Aug 2008 01:19:43 +0000 http://www.eiaonline.com/intercepts/?p=1145#comment-1063 To PARENT: I am a teacher and former local President. I am not sure about your point...but, I have worked for a Principal who, literally, bent my thumb until I told him he was a great Principal. The same Principal would get on the the p.a. system and yell at teachers...during the instructional day. I have worked for a school division that intimidates and harasses those who speak out. I have been called names at a public meeting by a Superintendent. My curriculum coordinator was forced to lie about me at a School Board meeting (And these were in two different school divisions.) This fall, I am returning to my job as a teacher after being a full-time release President for four years. I was placed at five schools...then two...until I decided to go part-time...because I advocated for my members. I was told that I couldn't be placed in schools where I had actively supported my members. In my school division...sucking-up is how you get to be a Principal. Micro-managing is the management model for building administrators and harassment is the tool of choice. Adult management skills are non-existent. Managing kids and managing adults require two completely differ skill sets. Moving teachers from one grade level to another "just because they can" is what they hold over the heads of teachers in my district. Our association was forced to re-sign every member every year. And then the administration openly gave high fives when they heard our membership had dropped. Principals' are moved from one school to anotherAgain, I am not sure what your point was ... but far too many people blame teachers for what's wrong with America's public schools...when they are at the bottom of the food chain and at least in my school division have few poossible remedies. That is why, we have an organization/association/quasi-union in my state. I hate to imagine how horrible teaching conditions would be if there were no advocates for teachers. To PARENT: I am a teacher and former local President. I am not sure about your point…but, I have worked for a Principal who, literally, bent my thumb until I told him he was a great Principal. The same Principal would get on the the p.a. system and yell at teachers…during the instructional day. I have worked for a school division that intimidates and harasses those who speak out. I have been called names at a public meeting by a Superintendent. My curriculum coordinator was forced to lie about me at a School Board meeting (And these were in two different school divisions.)

This fall, I am returning to my job as a teacher after being a full-time release President for four years. I was placed at five schools…then two…until I decided to go part-time…because I advocated for my members. I was told that I couldn’t be placed in schools where I had actively supported my members.

In my school division…sucking-up is how you get to be a Principal. Micro-managing is the management model for building administrators and harassment is the tool of choice. Adult management skills are non-existent. Managing kids and managing adults require two completely differ skill sets. Moving teachers from one grade level to another “just because they can” is what they hold over the heads of teachers in my district.

Our association was forced to re-sign every member every year. And then the administration openly gave high fives when they heard our membership had dropped.

Principals’ are moved from one school to anotherAgain, I am not sure what your point was … but far too many people blame teachers for what’s wrong with America’s public schools…when they are at the bottom of the food chain and at least in my school division have few poossible remedies. That is why, we have an organization/association/quasi-union in my state. I hate to imagine how horrible teaching conditions would be if there were no advocates for teachers.

]]> By: Parent http://www.eiaonline.com/intercepts/2008/07/31/sleepy-grumpy-and-dopey/comment-page-1/#comment-1062 Parent Tue, 05 Aug 2008 02:14:27 +0000 http://www.eiaonline.com/intercepts/?p=1145#comment-1062 EastCoast--not sure what field you work in, but I see a lot of accusations that I would expect from poorly supervised middle school students. Principal didn't cancel outdoor activity when there was smog. Principal did cancel recess when the day had been wet. Principal got hugs from young students (manipulating them you know). It seems as though there are two really big beefs. One the principal expected to spend time in classrooms observing. Two, teachers at a previous school had succeeded in raising such a ruckus that they made the principal move and these teachers, supported by their union, are trying for a repeat performance. If you check out the union's website, you will see that the teachers at the current school are using almost identical verbiage to describe their gripes, which include hostility, lack of cooperation and collaboration. Odd that the exact same words would be employed by two groups of teachers. Again, I don't know what field you work in, but if you have never been supervised by someone who wasn't good at cooperation and collaboration, then I would say you are more lucky than the usual worker. EastCoast–not sure what field you work in, but I see a lot of accusations that I would expect from poorly supervised middle school students. Principal didn’t cancel outdoor activity when there was smog. Principal did cancel recess when the day had been wet. Principal got hugs from young students (manipulating them you know).

It seems as though there are two really big beefs. One the principal expected to spend time in classrooms observing. Two, teachers at a previous school had succeeded in raising such a ruckus that they made the principal move and these teachers, supported by their union, are trying for a repeat performance. If you check out the union’s website, you will see that the teachers at the current school are using almost identical verbiage to describe their gripes, which include hostility, lack of cooperation and collaboration. Odd that the exact same words would be employed by two groups of teachers.

Again, I don’t know what field you work in, but if you have never been supervised by someone who wasn’t good at cooperation and collaboration, then I would say you are more lucky than the usual worker.

]]> By: EastCoast http://www.eiaonline.com/intercepts/2008/07/31/sleepy-grumpy-and-dopey/comment-page-1/#comment-1061 EastCoast Mon, 04 Aug 2008 20:47:14 +0000 http://www.eiaonline.com/intercepts/?p=1145#comment-1061 Ummm...not many other employers would treat their employees like this Principal treats her teachers. Interesting to note...poor treatment of teachers occurs in my school district as well. And we wonder why we have such a difficult time recruiting and retaining teachers? It's not only about the money. Ummm…not many other employers would treat their employees like this Principal treats her teachers. Interesting to note…poor treatment of teachers occurs in my school district as well. And we wonder why we have such a difficult time recruiting and retaining teachers? It’s not only about the money.

]]> By: Parent http://www.eiaonline.com/intercepts/2008/07/31/sleepy-grumpy-and-dopey/comment-page-1/#comment-1056 Parent Fri, 01 Aug 2008 18:11:25 +0000 http://www.eiaonline.com/intercepts/?p=1145#comment-1056 Anonymous: I saw that she's a three-time loser, however, the Dolores School has had four principals in four years and some pretty low scores. I don't see an overwhelming mandate from the community as much as I see a well-orchestrated movement of non-cooperation on the part of the teachers. It takes some real stretch to see anything beyond a he-said, she-said in their charges. This doesn't say that I can endorse the principal--but I also don't see how any principal can survive in the current atmosphere. If I were in charge, I would offer transfers to any teachers who want out and make clear to the rest that they will commit to working with whoever the administration decides will be the principal. On what planet is it OK for teachers to involve children in trying to drive out their principal? Anonymous:

I saw that she’s a three-time loser, however, the Dolores School has had four principals in four years and some pretty low scores. I don’t see an overwhelming mandate from the community as much as I see a well-orchestrated movement of non-cooperation on the part of the teachers. It takes some real stretch to see anything beyond a he-said, she-said in their charges. This doesn’t say that I can endorse the principal–but I also don’t see how any principal can survive in the current atmosphere. If I were in charge, I would offer transfers to any teachers who want out and make clear to the rest that they will commit to working with whoever the administration decides will be the principal.

On what planet is it OK for teachers to involve children in trying to drive out their principal?

]]> By: Anonymous http://www.eiaonline.com/intercepts/2008/07/31/sleepy-grumpy-and-dopey/comment-page-1/#comment-1055 Anonymous Fri, 01 Aug 2008 17:15:21 +0000 http://www.eiaonline.com/intercepts/?p=1145#comment-1055 What the article fails to mention is the fact that Anna Barraza has been a failure as an educational leader at two other schools previously, Riordan Primary Center and Dena Elementary. She has disrupted the school communities at both schools with her behavior, and she has been transferred twice now as a direct result of the damage she has done to the educational program at both sites and the resulting organized response from those communities. She has had more than due process.... What the article fails to mention is the fact that Anna Barraza has been a failure as an educational leader at two other schools previously, Riordan Primary Center and Dena Elementary. She has disrupted the school communities at both schools with her behavior, and she has been transferred twice now as a direct result of the damage she has done to the educational program at both sites and the resulting organized response from those communities. She has had more than due process….

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